Iōng-chiá thó-lūn:Hiòng-êng

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introduction[siu-kái]

Hi, góa sī hiòng-êng. Góa e Bān-lâm-oē bô hó. I speak Filipino most of the time, write in English, and talk with elders in Hokkien. Even my Hokkien may be mixed, for my elders came from Qingyong, my book is Amoy and the Church I attend is Taiwanese. The reason I contributed here is because I want to learn how to read Chinese text in peh-ōe-jī.

Hiòng-êng 00:36, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

sources[siu-kái]

I have no peh-ōe-jī dictionary. My sources are:

Have you tried the on-line POJ dictionaries [1] [2] [3]? These are fairly useful (in fact the largest on-line Southern Min dictionaries anywhere, though pronounciations are all Taiwanese and they do assume knowledge of Mandarin). I know someone who's been interested in having English gloss -- maybe I can put you in touch. A-giâu 10:41, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

For Chinese Characters, I use

  • Far East English-Chinese Chinese English Dictionary 2004.
  • King James Version/Chinese Union Version with New Punctuation. Third Printing - 1994 ISBN 962 293 347 5 - KJV/CUNP63ADI ISBN 962 293 358 0 - KJV/CUNP67ADI
  • . cedict.

For words I can not find, I look at daiwanway website and convert the words to peh-ōe-jī.

Other resources I may have used are… (non peh-ōe-jī)

  • Keeping up with your Chinese Filipino. by Johnny C. Young. Vol 1 & 2.
  • Basic Fukienese by Joy Dy.

I use yudit editor using a peh-ōe-jī input system. Chinese Text, I use emacs.

Hiòng-êng 00:36, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

help[siu-kái]

Please kindly help check if my entries as I may have errors in my input at the Dictionary jitian entries.

Can I ask some of your help to help aid me in translating Chinese characters which I don't know how to write in peh-ōe-jī?

Hiòng-êng 00:36, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Given that you're practically the only editor here, I think I'll post a message on Wikipedia so others can get your message. I was hesitant to get into Wiktionary in the first place because we had but a few editors (none of whom were familiar with Wiktionary infrastructure), though I can definitely see how dictionary-building can be a useful tool for learning or improving one's language proficiency. A-giâu 10:32, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Oh, btw, the usual format is to put the self-intro stuff on the user's page and leave this area for discussion (usually initiated by others), though of course you're welcome to do as you please. A-giâu 10:34, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Oh, sorry about that, I'll take note of that in the future, thanks. Hiòng-êng 23:54, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi Hiòng-êng, it is nice to see you contributing to this wiktionary. I didn't spend much time here for similar reasons as A-giau. In the past I did try to put some data here, but I then realize that designing a dictionary is different than designing a encyclopedia and I didn't put more energy into this. I think a proper design is important before we try to keyin lot amount of data since re-organizing these data will be a waste of time. I personally think we should discuss who are the targeted and potential users of this wiktionary, then we discuss the design of the wiktionary, then the work can be divied into different catetories/parts and potential contributors can choose to contribue the catetory/part he/she is most interested in. Just my 2 cents. Pektiong 13:18, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
For example, there might be two types of data (but they can also be presented in a uniform way).
  • Han characters/字-->its pronunciation in various dialects and meaning. 雞-->ke,koe,
  • Word/辭 --> zoo, 動物園, tōng-bu̍t-hn̂g,
Pektiong 13:18, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Good point. I have not thought of that.
I just browsed last week the wiki users here and found out that we are just 13 + a bot. And even unsure how many of the 13 do edit. Yes, I have been adding a little amount to the Dictionary ji-tian but these are just potential links to the ji-tian entries per se. I checked lâng and bâng entries, are these our draft format? I played around with Wiktionary:Soa-poâⁿ. I was planning to add a template on the right column, a help table hokkien-english. example le: example.
Do we have the number to take discuss the design of this wiktionary? If I have a say, I do like the idea that of a min-nan wiktionary which would help people who knows English learn POJ. But of course if that's okay with you both.
My few entries (250 words/phrases) here, I have compile in the edict/cedict format, with the pinyin replaced with POJ, but not in numbered format (tōng i.o. tong7). But I'm getting a little discouraged by my slow progress... numbers do count Hiòng-êng 23:54, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
To encourage you. You can download some poj <->hanji data from here. This date is released underl GPL, and is used in some input method for Taiwanese. Since it is GPL, you can transfer data from that file to here then work on it. (Maybe we need to specifiy how the data is modificed based on the original poj-holo.cin).
Wow, thanks for that link. Are you suggesting a similar data file which includes other data we need for POJ ji-tian entries? Hiòng-êng 04:41, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
lâng and bâng are some testing format, not even draft format. My original "targeted user" is people who want to learn/use Minnan in POJ. (a POJ-POJ dictionary.) For standard POJ, one should use diacritics. I put the POJ with numbered tone there for "searching" purpose since searching POJ with diacritics is more difficult and POJ with diacritics can have equivalent forms (tâi-ôan, taî-ôan, tâi-oân, tâi-oân) while POJ with number is more unique (tai5-oan5). And potentially user can link directly using something like http://zh-min-nan.wiktionary.org/w/tai5-oan5
Finally, I think the potential users can be divied into three categories: POJ based user, Hanji based user, and Others (English, Japanese, etc). Pektiong 01:20, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
I agree. Do we need then a second and third page for potential user group number 2 and 3? Hiòng-êng 04:41, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
For group 3 (English & others) we could simply expand the entry (e.g. lâng) by listing the equivalent entries in other languages ("Eng-gú: person"), as is done in the English Wiktionary. Whereas lâng (and person) here would be explained in Minnan, en:lâng would do the same but in English. So, say we stick to the English Wiktionary as a model, part of the work would actually be over at en: (or ja: or zh:, etc.). A-giâu 18:35, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
(continued at interwiki concerns...) Hiòng-êng 06:48, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

format[siu-kái]

would it be better if the format for the Dictionary Jitian be…

English - Chinese - Peh-ōe-jī - Dialect i.o. English - Chinese - Peh-ōe-jī - Variant

Where dialect would either be Ē-mn̂g, Tâi-òan, Chiang-chiu, Choân-chiu, Chìn-kang, Eng-chhun-chiu, Lêng-nâ etc? If so, Is there anyone here who is able to categorize these? As I've said, I do not know how to, but it might be of help for others to know. Just a suggestion.

Hiòng-êng 00:36, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

interwiki concerns[siu-kái]

How do we deal with same spelling ex. man in Eng-gi and in POJ at the en.wikt?

Is it a must that the entry ūi be the dictionary entry itself rather than as we have been testing? There are still some problem with the format though Hiòng-êng 06:48, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

I think ūi should be used to link to 位. Since 位 has fewer pronounciation to itemize compared with ūi.... that is in the long run.

In , I have linked the Chinese and English link as follows at the hoan-ek column ...

Place

The en.wikt can link to zh-min-nan using

ūi

Hiòng-êng 07:18, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I think I misunderstood your point. I read it again and my questions were uncalled for. Hiòng-êng 14:02, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

capitalize the first Character?[siu-kái]

I think current mediawiki capitalize the first Character for all entry links. In furture version maybe one can turn this on/off as an option. Pektiong 02:00, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Tōng-bu̍t-hn̄g + Zoo[siu-kái]

Please take a look at Tōng-bu̍t-hn̄g and Zoo. Let me know if you like the idea of this approach. Pektiong 03:23, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

It's nice. I think we can start with this much details. Too much details would slow down the entry process. Hiòng-êng 01:24, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Adding reference?[siu-kái]

I am thinking about adding reference to the entries. For example, "Hia" is include in dict A/B/C....What do you think? Pektiong 03:27, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I am new at wiktionary and I guess I have not yet understood the wiki way fully, seeing that I misunderstood many of A-giau and your comments. Please forgive me, I do not understand what you mean here. Is there a difference between categories and reference. again forgive me my ignorance here. If you mean a new page (example "dic A" ) where you will link wiktionary entries (ex. Hia), then that would be helpful imo. Hiòng-êng 09:59, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
My bad. There are many tricks in wiki what I don't understand too. I guess something I am talking about the possible ideas, not about how to implement them in wiki. In this case, what I mean is that. Maybe it is useful to include some info saying that this word is included in the dictinary "A dictionary of the Amoy vernacula" (or some other important dictionary). As for implementation, we may use a template, or use a category, or some other way. Again, this is only a rough idea. Pektiong 13:45, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Oh I see. That would be a great idea. How do we implement this? Hiòng-êng 14:16, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

How about something like this...

At the bottom of each entry we add ...
=== Chham-khó 參考 ===
{{A Dictionary of the Amoy vernacular}}

which would contain whole detail in the template as below...

* A dictionary of the Amoy vernacular, Ē-MN̂G IM Ê JĪ-TIÁN, 廈門音新字典 人光出版社 W. Campbell,

I also suggest to have chit8-iah8 where we would put a table of reference and its equivalent template.

Reference (in POJ) Template
A dictionary of the Amoy vernacular, Ē-MN̂G IM Ê JĪ-TIÁN, 廈門音新字典 人光出版社 W. Campbell, {{A Dictionary of the Amoy vernacular}}

Maybe we need to use codes for the template, example {{EMIEJT}} for our example. What do you think? Hiòng-êng 16:02, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

or maybe just create Template:Chham-khó, put {{Chham-khó}} under a su5 entry, and make footnote like reference from the chinese character.

so on top of the su5

== Hàn-jī 漢字 ==
*[[字]]+[[典]] ¹

and at the bottom ...

{{Chham-khó}}

which would produce something like ...

Jī-tián



Hàn-jī 漢字

...
Chham-khó 參考

  • ¹ A dictionary of the Amoy vernacular, Ē-MN̂G IM Ê JĪ-TIÁN, 廈門音新字典 人光出版社 W. Campbell,
  • ² 實用台語小字典 自立晚報 胡鑫麟 編著
  • ³ 台灣話大詞典 遠流 陳修 ISBN 9573240785
  • ⁴ Amoy Vernacular Handbook Volume One (Revised Edition) by Victoria Ang Gobonseng ISBN 971-92742-0-4.
  • ⁵ Sin-kū-iok ê Sèng-keng ISBN 957-0472-01-4.
Hiòng-êng 07:23, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

English Wiktionary Format[siu-kái]

Wiktionary Entry Layout puts it this way...

The following example of code shows the most fundamental elements of an article:

  1. a word’s language (as a level 2 heading)
  2. its part of speech or type (as a level 3 heading)
  3. the word itself
  4. a definition.
  5. "References" (as a level 3 heading)
  6. a verifiable place where you found the word

This code can be copied and used to start an article or section of an article.

 ==English==
 ===Noun===
 '''bed'''
 # A piece of furniture to sleep on.
 ===References===
 * ''The Oxford Paperback Dictionary''
 

and ...

References It is increasingly more important to the credibility of Wiktionary to be able to add references that substantiate what we say. In due course, every article should have at least one reference which a reader can use to verify what has been said. The need to balance respect for copyrights with definitions that are so inventive as to be inaccurate has a profound effect on the usefulness of Wiktionary.

References here may be given in a normal bibliographic format showing author, title, place of publication, publisher and year of publication. Templates beginning with “R:” are being devised for some of the most commonly used sources. Thus, for the 1913 Webster, we have Pang-bô͘:R:Webster 1913, which gives

  • Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (G & C. Merriam Co., 1913, edited by Noah Porter), ARTFL version at [1]

We should rather follow this. Hiòng-êng 06:29, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Request to check or delete[siu-kái]

Please check or delete the khì-cho̍at entry. I just realized that I might have mistaken it with kī-cho̍at. btw, what does the Khì-cho̍at in Sin-ku-iok mean? What is it's Hàn-jī and it's english equivalent? -- Hiòng-êng 03:59, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

In the context of the Sin-kū-iok, khì-choa̍t (棄絕) more often carries the meaning of "abandon". Alternatively it may also mean "to breathe one's last breath" (i.e. die), or 氣絕. A-giâu 17:43, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Nomination for administrator rights[siu-kái]

Hi, considering your level of activity on this wiki, I've nominated you for administration on Wiktionary:Hêng-chèng jîn-oân. Administrators (aka "sysops") have tools to do deletion and quick reversion -- especially useful in weeding out spam and pranks. Please indicate on that page whether you accept or decline this nomination. If you accept, you may vote for yourself. (Note I jumped the gun by voting already. Please disregard that for now.) A-giâu 18:26, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Nā bô lâng hoán-tùi, góa chàn-sêng, thanks. -- Hiòng-êng 01:32, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Kiong-hí! Lí chit-má sī administrator/sysop :) A-giâu 05:54, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

To-siā lín. :) -- Hiòng-êng 10:17, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Hoan-e̍k sin sû[siu-kái]

Hi, Hiòng-êng: Wikipedia hit-pêng chòe-kīn ū teh thó-lūn gōa-lâi-gí ê hoan-e̍k būn-tê. Góa tiàm chia khui 2-tiâu gōa-gí chò chhì-giām: 奈米, sub-. M̄-koh in-ūi góa koáⁿ sî-kan (pān-toāⁿ), ti̍t-chiap tùi en: copy kòe--lâi, só·-í hia ê keh-sek (format) khó-lêng kap lán chia bô kāng-khoán. Nā ū su-iàu, hoan-gêng lí pang góa chhiâu--chi̍t-ē, kám-siā.

Hopefully Wikipedians will find Wiktionary a useful platform for discussing useful ways of bringing new terms into the language.

A-giâu 14:42, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Is "chhiâu" = adjust/revise (CEDICT:調整)? If so, I'll take a look at those. -- Hiòng-êng 22:18, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Ji-si[siu-kái]

Hiòng-êng, góa sī A-yao. I want to ask if it is more workable when I use the peh-ōe-jī alphabet instead of the English alphabet since this is a Min Nan Dictionary and thesaurus, its better to use the alphabet of each language. A-yao 14:17, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

I have a problem, may I double-entry some surnames since some has 2 formats when using peh-ōe-jī. A-yao 14:49, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Request for deletion[siu-kái]

Hiòng-êng, may I request for deletion on the article Zoo because it's a redirect page and there is a German word on it because as of Chùn-hiàn, German Words should be capitalized. A-yao 14:06, 7 Chhit-goe̍h 2006 (UTC)

I renew the article Zoo, but please delete tōng-bu̍t-hn̄g, due to the wrong spelling. --Chùn-hiàn 16:09, 7 Chhit-goe̍h 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, just saw this one. I checked the entry spelling at lomaji website and it seems correct. Would like to know if the lomaji entry has a wrong spelling. If so, maybe it would be better to move the wrong spelling to the correct spelling and then adjust the content accordingly. What do you think? Hiòng-êng 01:53, 24 Chhit-goe̍h 2006 (UTC)

Sû-lūi[siu-kái]

Hi, Hiòng-êng, you asked me about lexical categories (I think). I am not aware of a readymade list on-line, but I know Taipei Language Institute's dictionary has several pages of them, with examples. It's a somewhat long list. A-giâu 07:54, 22 Peh-goe̍h 2006 (UTC)

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